Transcript of my Talk with Katie

Alexs: We've got our very good friend Katie at our house in Kansas City with Jeremy, our esteemed guest, who said he's nervous.

Jeremy: Just a little bit.

Alexs: So we cracked open some wine, hopefully that gets the jitters out. Yep. And so Katie has been our friends since probably 2016. Katie and her dad used to own the White horse pub, so when we first met Katie, I had just moved to Kansas City and I got my job at Hallmark. In the book I talk about how Jeremy and I met and we can talk about that more later here, but a certain point, I realized that the life I had lived, over 10 years traveling in the Middle East and having a lot of different success in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and different parts in Africa. I still felt like there was more. I never like to say there was something missing.

Katie: It was me!

Alexs: So I walk into this bar and I'm like, there she is…

Jeremy: …we have to change the ending of the book.

Alexs: So, Jeremy already had a place north of the river outside of downtown Kansas City. And so we spent a lot of time up here, and I was spending more time in the suburbs…

Jeremy: In the suburbs!

Katie: It's not a bad word.

Alexs: And so one of the first places we went was a place called the White Horse Pub. It was walking distance from the place where Jeremy was living and we met Katie. So there you go, Katie, if you want to introduce yourself or tell a funny story

Katie: My name is Katie and my dad and I, well, my dad opened the restaurant and I was the bartender. I moved from Colorado and I took all the knowledge that I had from the past and we just ran a little pub.

Alexs: It was a great pub. It was like the TV show, Cheers for us.

Jeremy: Yeah, like, two blocks walking.

Alexs: Yeah, I don't want to get ahead. I want to tell the story…because it's not just about the pub, right? Part of It is about our relationship and how we grew. And so I think you know, Katie, if you talk about I don't know if you remember when we first came in…

Katie: I don't know if I remember when you very first came in, but I remember you, Alexs coming and sitting at the bar and I don't know if you were just like this is the only light of something in this area that is not totally suburbs. It feels more foreign.

Alexs: Yeah, that's a really good point, because…

Katie: I mean, it's a British pub.

Alexs: I hadn't thought about that, but that's a really good point. There's so many different places that I go to it, and even in the book, I don't talk about them all, but I'm sure the reader is gonna be like wait, you're in another country, another place. And I talk about the airports in different countries. And I used this expression in the book and I said it was that “comfortable kind of discomfort”, that discomfort that I got used to. And so it's true. I thought about that. But being at the pub, seeing things like fish and chips, and a scotch egg, you know, all that kind of stuff sort of…

Katie: then the weirdoes that lived in the neighborhood...

Alexs: That's also a really good point…

Katie: I think you like unique things. I think you like unique experiences. And I also think that you thought the Burbs were a death trap for your soul…but I think it's what you make of the place. But I do remember you coming in first, and just kind of sitting there and not really talking to anybody. And then the thing that caught my attention was…

Jeremy: …his good looks?

Katie: But it was the fact that…I hear all kinds of garbage and people saying stupid stuff and most of time I just ignore it. But sometimes something will stick out, and I just kind of have a little wince. And I noticed that when I had those winces Alexs was doing the exact same thing. So I'm like, comrade! I don't know if we really talked it all, but then I saw Jeremy coming in and honestly, I had no idea that you guys were together at all. I think the first time, I kind of got an inkling of it was when I think it was Sal and you guys were talking about how you all have a love, for some reason, a love not for national parks, but state parks. I have no idea of the difference or the draw. I mean, I like nature and I like outdoor stuff, but I wouldn't be like this is it! state parks…

Alexs: We're gonna be talking about at the bar…

Katie: Yeah, but I've seen all kinds of people commune over things that you think, okay, you like the same lipstick…

Alexs: …that was a really interesting day. You wanna talk about the state parks?

Jeremy: Yeah. Like how we got started? Have we told you that story of how we first started our state part experience? I think it was my birthday weekend. Alexs had rented a condo down there? So we went down to…

Katie: How long have you guys been seeing each other at this point?

Alexs: I'd lived in Kansas City for…it was in the first year…within the first year, so this was 2017 right…2016

Katie: Were you living together then?

Jeremy: No.

Jeremy: Anyway, we rented a condo, down in Lake of the Ozarks. My sister used to live in Camdenton and there's a state park there called Ha Ha Tonka. Ha Ha means laughing…

Alexs: I forget what Indian tribe it was, but that's what “ha ha” means. It actually means laughing…

Katie: I'm pretty sure Titi Kaka means boobs and shit, doesn't it?

Alexs: I’m not sure…

Jeremy: …so we went to the visitor center at the State Park and they had these passports which I think we’ve shown you.

Alexs: It's like a leather. I mean, it's like a legit leather bound. Have we shown it to you?

Katie: You guys have shown this to me.

Jeremy: You could at least act surprised.

Katie: I remember. No, no, I have acted surprised. You've shown me... at least four times. You guys showed me the first time and I was like, “Oh that's cool”. I didn't think about it. And then maybe two weeks later, you're like, “did you see this? “

Alexs: It was really funny how it became such a passion for us. Because I hadn't lived here very long and we were still getting to know each other. And so we would spend hours in the week looking at maps, the time it would take to get where we were going, where we're going to stay, and what we're gonna do.

Jeremy: Yeah, we had the whole Missouri state map. We would map out our route with highlighters.

Alexs: I think it gave us a chance to build our relationship without… we didn't have to talk about the relationship…

Katie: Do you guys actually sit and talk about your relationship that much? I just kind of assume that's not something guys do.

Jeremy: We actually probably do…

Katie: I think that's healthy, but I just didn't think... I guess it depends on how evolved you are.

Jeremy: We talk about our future all the time. Yeah. We talk about our future…

Katie: Like, straight fiscally. Or do you mean like your…everything?

Alexs: Yeah, like where we wanna live, What we wanna do…money.

Jeremy: Everything…what we want to do for retirement jobs, All that kind of stuff.

Katie: I think that that now that you guys are talking about this, I feel like it…your state park thing is reasonable goals because you could get there.

Alexs: Exactly.

Katie: And it's also uncharted territory for both of you, so you're experiencing something new at the same time. Which is a bonding thing.  I don't know if you calculated that, but…

Jeremy: Yeah, you think about how many hours we spent in the car that year. It took us exactly 12 months to the weekend. We finished all 88 state parks 12 months to the weekend from when we started. You think about how much time we were in the car that year. We didn't do any vacations…well, every vacation was a state park. Several weekends we took the girls with us…But, I mean, we were in the car on an average weekend, at least probably 15 hours when we were doing the state parks, and there were no awkward silences. Like what are gonna talk about way; we talked about a lot of stuff.

Alexs: And like I said, we weren’t talking about our future at that time, we were talking about all that kind of stuff like where we're gonna stop. Whether we were ahead or behind schedule. What is going on here right now?

Jeremy: Yeah, like we're like driving in the Ozark Mountains on a dirt road and there's people burning shit and barrels and we’re thinking we're definitely gonna get killed. Two gay men in the middle of the Ozarks.

Alexs: And it's funny, you know, you said, you know that when you first met us, you didn't know we were together. One of things I write about in the book is how all my life I've really rejected labels and rejected living my life the way people said I was supposed to. In the book I specifically talked aboutmy skin color, my gender…whatever it is about how people think about me, it drove me crazy. And when I was able to sort of throw that all off, that's when I started to become more healthy.

Katie: You mean like, emotionally healthy?

Alexs: Yeah, definitely. So, what do you think you said when we were talking with Sal was the first time…

Katie: OK, well, you were talking to Sal and Sal is very loud and obnoxious. Everybody knows a Sal or whatever their name is. And you both…all of you guys had a huge thing for state parks…

Jeremy: That was one of the few times his wife was there, right?

Alexs: Yeah.

Katie: So you guys all talked about state parks and I'm like, what is happening?

Alexs: We were at the bar talking about state parks.

Katie: That never happens. I wanted to have a beer and watch that.

Jeremy: It was a Sunday.

Katie: But it was after that that I started to pay attention to you guys more. That wasn't when I knew you were together, I just heard you guys talking about what you liked and everything. And then, I think it was I think at that time I was planning my wedding when we started talking. And then there was one night where you guys had had a couple drinks. I mean, you weren't sloshed by any means, but we all know at this point that Alexs has a couple and he's feeling himself and he’s feeling Jeremy. And Jeremy was uncomfortable and I thought, “this is fun to watch.”

Jeremy: So…this'll went on for three years.

Katie: It was adorable because I could see that you guys deeply cared for each other and I didn’t know if it was a new relationship. I mean, I'm not gay, and I don't know what it's like to come out at any age. I've always been like “here I am, rock me like a hurricane.” So I could see with Jeremy that you were like, “I don't know if I wanna show this part of me”, and that's totally fine. I feel like everybody is like you should come out and it's none of their business. I do it when I want to when I feel like. But I started pick up on it and I was like, “Oh”, and then I think I mentioned something one time about you guys being a couple, and it just went over like it was nothing. And I'm like, Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

And then I started talking about planning my wedding and you started talking about you guys and I was saying all the garbage that hetero weddings have to go through. Not have to, but what you choose to do and the parties and all that stuff. And you guys were talking about how you were thinking about a hog roast in the woods and playing rugby. And then I suggested you get an airstream that's been converted into a bar. And then we sat there planning your wedding. I don't know, I just I felt like you guys were just really real and you didn't annoy me. I felt like I could have a conversation with you.

And it's not that…the thing I loved about my job was it was my favorite show. The weirdoes that would come in there…it was absolutely a show. And I would just keep..my quarters…were more beers. I would just keep watching, keep watching. And I felt like you guys were sitting there and watching it with me. Sometimes it was ridiculous.

Alexs: Yeah, but And also we had sort of the same perspective. You know, it's like it's a shit show out there, which is one thing, if you notice it. But if there are other people around who also notice, you also get that. “It's a shit show” together. Yeah, we're having fun tonight.

Katie: I'm also a snob. And that was probably the first thing I noticed about Alexs. Hey, was like, I'm better than that. I'm like, So am. But it was all said with the eyes.

Jeremy: You guys had plenty of those conversations.

Alexs: That's one of things Jeremy always says is that Katie and I are like the same person.

Jeremy: Yeah, you're the female version of Alexs.

Katie: Oh, you’re a lucky dog—and I’m talking to the both of you.

Jeremy: It’s like you guys had you your own language.

Katie: And I can your brain.

Jeremy: Like I said all the time, It’s like you guys understand each other…

Katie: …even with sunglasses on in the Dominican, I'm like, I can't hear you. And Alexs was like, “shut up”.

Alexs: When did we go to the Dominican. That was a year ago, right?

Katie: Yeah, it was a year ago isn’t that crazy?

Alexs: Yeah. I was a lot of fun. I mean, and it brings up the other part of this, you know? So Jeremy and I started going into the White Horse Pub, but you hooked us up with other couples. It wasn't just that we went in there and found a place with a great bartender. We also found…

Katie: I think that’s what a good bartender is: somebody who facilitates..they’re a host. You facilitate the party when people come in. You see people who have similar interests. And like I said, it’s like I'm watching a show and you've all watched shows and thought, “those two should get together”. It makes for a great party. And I could do that and all it would take was me going, “Hey, have you met blah, blah, blah?” And if it worked, it worked. If it didn't, it didn't. But when you guys would come in as time went on and you made friends with people like Brian and Renee and everyone else, the party got a little bigger and people paid attention to what you were saying.

And the way our bar was set up, for those of you don't know, it was kind of like a tight horseshoe. So it was easy to talk across the bar to people and have a conversation; we set it up like that on purpose because that's how a pub would be. Not necessarily that shape, but just a tight little deal so it's like an intimate dinner.

Alexs: And so, Jeremy and I started going, but by the time the pub closed down, we had a community of 20 friends. Another 10 couples that we would hang out with all the time. Two or three times a week we'd sit back…

Katie: I won’t lie, sometimes I think back that that was a such a little magical spot..

Alexs: It really was magical…

Jeremy: Yeah, it was sad when it closed.

Alexs: Yeah. I mean, it was really important for me, you know, making a big transition of moving from D.C…so in the book, one of things I talk about is when I came back from Bahrain in 2014 I was severely depressed. It was over a decade for me of living and working in the Middle East and dealing with all sorts of situations.

Katie: Did you go straight from Bahrain to D.C.?

Alexs: No, I went from Bahrain to D. C. So, when I moved here, I had spent a lot of time with the military, which has a lot of camaraderie, a lot of structure and good friendships. I built these bonds, right? And I was playing rugby, and it was the same thing. Really good relationships, friendships when you play rugby and I was a fireman. Those were all really tight communities and when I left D.C… one of things that Jeremy and I always said a lot was that I left D.C. for me.

Obviously, I wanted to be with Jeremy, but I did it because I thought it was the best thing for me and for my life. When I came back from Bahrain, I made these three promises to myself: One was that I was gonna finish my dissertation. The second was that I was never going back to the Middle East. And the third one was I was going to settle down—and I didn't know exactly what that meant, but I spent a bunch of time going on dates and trying to meet people.

Katies: So you meant settled down like being a relationship. Not just like hanging out…

Alexs: …it's funny, because when in the moment, I didn't know what it meant. When I wrote the book, I looked back and thought, “obviously you were looking for someone”, right? But in the moment, you know, for over a decade I was motivated by a passion to live out a mission, right? My mission was to fix U.S.-Middle East policy, and I went anywhere, did anything to solve it. Which is impossible. It's impossible. I lived my life thinking I could do anything and not holding back. I lived with Muslim fundamentalists in Yemen, in Egypt and Syria and Jordan, all over the Middle East because I believed I could fix this problem.

And then when I came back, all I knew, all I could hear in my head was, “settled down, settled down. I was like.. Okay, well, I get enough

Katie: Wasthat your own voice or something that you don't know?

It was my own voice, you know, because I knew that there was something else, something mawr that I needed. You know, when I was in Bahrain, I had this great job. I had my own flat. I had a rooftop poll, Belaid rugby all the time

Katie: He gave it all up for you, Jeremy…

Jeremy: Don’t think I don’t hear it all the time, “now we live in Kansas City, the suburbs! There's no pool.

Katie: What I think is so funny about that is you have gone through your life doing extreme things and doing…things that are interesting. I know you were doing them for you, but they are also great conversations at cocktail parties. I'm not saying that's why you did it by any means, but…

Jeremy: It's great content for a book.

Alexs: Nice pitch up for the book.

Katie: But I think it was funny watching you because I felt like you were struggling in a place that was the most mundane place on earth because it's the Middle East to the Midwest.

Alexs: Yeah, that's what I call it: the Middle West. That's what I was sort of getting to. You know, we've been talking about the number of people that we met at the pub and I can't overemphasize the importance. I said we met 10 or 15 other couples, but it's not just that we randomly see these people was like three or four nights a week. We're spending time with people, either at the pub or at their homes or somewhere else. We were going downtown, spend our weekends together. When I left D. C, I was used to being the center of attention because I did all sorts of crazy shit with my life. Eve when I was with military folks or with politicians or whoever… academics…they'd be like, “Oh, yeah, I was in Iraq for, 60 days” and I was like, “Well, I was in Iraq for a year, and I was also in Afghanistan and central and Eastern Africa and…” I was used to being the center of attention. I was used to being in environments where we were all very close and all spent our time together. Coming to Kansas City was like…

Katie: “What did I do?” And not in a not in a regretful way but in a … you know, your brain gets wired to live a certain way. Your brain gets used to doing certain things, being certain places, acting certain ways and all that stopped. And so, being able to go to the pub and meet you, Katie who, like Jeremy said, created a sense of comfort and having friends that, within four or five months of knowing each other that when we see each other we say, “I love you and I'm happy to hang out with you.” That alleviated some of the pressure of the mundane.

Katie: It did the same thing for me because I had moved all over. I mean, by no means was it the same kind of roller coaster that you were on. I've lived in different places and I had to start over a couple of times; the whole restaurant thing was my family's deal, and I didn't know anybody.

Alexs: I didn't know that when you started at the pub, you had just moved here or move back here.

Katie: I'd never lived here before. I swore up and down my whole life. I'd never live in the Midwest because I wanted to either be at the beach or in the mountains. And so I was in South Carolina and Atlanta than Tennessee. And then I moved to Colorado with my sister and she was like the market is a little saturated for acupuncture so let's go back to Kansas City.

And then my dad said, “You've worked in restaurants. You know, the corporate deal, and I know that you can structure things in your head, so let's do this restaurant.”

Alexs: So, it was a big deal for you?

Katie: Yeah, well, I mean, it was just the next deal. Nothing is a big deal until you look back on it.

Jeremy: Was John with you the whole…

Katie: No, I met…my dad hired him there.

Jeremy: That's when you met John?

Katie: Yeah. And he had moved back from Florida because he grew up here, he came back because his dad was sick and helped his dad. So yeah, my dad hired John. I remember meeting him and shaking his hand and thinking…and I have told him this so I don't care if you play it…”what a tool bag”.

Alexs: How long before you were dating?

Katie: Um, a year and a half on. He said that he was watching these television shows like “Will, they Won't they”.  And he'd be like, That's me and Katie.

Alexs: Before you were together?

Katie: Oh, yeah. And you know my friends Angie and Tyler? John went over to their house one night, and he was like, I really want to ask Katie out. My sister was there and she's like, “No. She will shoot you down”. Angie literally said, “If you like her, go for it. Worst case scenario, you're in the same spot you're in now”. And so…you know about the bet?

Jeremy: No.

Katie: So, the Royals were playing the A's for the wild card. We were watching it with my sister and Marcus because they were dating at the time. We were watching at this one bar and the Royals were losing. And then we went up to D’barbs and I said… he looked at me and he said…well, we were friends, just friends…I had no idea he liked me. And he actually said, “Would you ever date me?” And I said, “You're kind of like a Ken Doll, you’re a man, but like, it's plastic.

Alexs: That’s terrible!

Jeremy: And he was still interested?

Katie: I know. I didn't think about time. Yeah, he was still interested. Yeah, I mean, that boy jumped through some hoops that I didn't even know I was putting up. So, that night, he said, “if the Royals win this, you gotta kiss me.” And I was like, Okay, because I was drunk and I was like, whatever good for him, and they won and I don't place a bet if I'm not gonna pay up.

Alexs: Was this a peck or a kiss.

Katie: Oh, it was a kiss kiss.

Jeremy: Was this the fried chicken morning?

Katie: No, that was a different morning. But yeah, I remember walking out of Dbarbs and he was standing outside having a cigarette, and I was like, “the Royals won”. I walked over to him and just planted one on him. At that point, like I said, he was a Ken Doll at that point. But then I was like, “Wait a minute, something's happening. It was a good kiss and after that we were done. I mean, after that, we’d sit in the car and talk.

And then his mom said…Oh, my God! The first time I stayed at his house, I wanted to get out of there without seeing his mother. And so, John goes ahead of me to make sure the coast is clear. He says, “Let's go, let's go”. We get to the garage and his mom is standing there and I literally said, “Oh Fuck!” His mom goes, “Oh my God, did you guys have a meeting?” And I went, “yeah”. And then she says, “You know, my daughter works at Sephora and my whole bathroom has tons of makeup. And if you ever need to use it, go ahead and use it.” John's going “shut up on Mom.”

Jeremy: The walk of shame: That's hilarious.

Katie: It was funny. It was awful, but it’s a good story.

Alexs: And so, it must have been good for you because you had been moving around a lot.

Katie: Yeah and so I would listen to podcasts because I thought, you know, if I can hear people who I would actually have a conversation with, I could feel like I'm having a conversation with someone that I find interesting. Not that I think everybody's an idiot, but a lot of people are. Let's be honest, a lot of people are, so when I met you, I thought, “Well, he's a snob”… and I don't mean … I should say a categorist. I'm not... I am judgmental, but..

Alexs: It's not about treating people badly or…

Katie: It’s just you're either in or you're out as far as being in my circles.

Alexs: I think it's the result of having had a lot of experience, and for me it's like I might say, “you're a jackass, I don't want to spend any time with you”, but I want you to do your thing. I don't care as long as you’re being a jackass away from me. The flip side of it is that when you're in, youre fucking in..

Katie: And it doesn't need to be upkeep all the time. It's just like when I see you, it's like no time has passed and we're good. And those are the friends that I always like to cultivate because the ones that are like, “you never call me”, I'm like, “the phone works both ways.”

Alexs: I never understood that

Katie: I think mainly girls do that.

Alexs: That's not true, actually.

Katie: Really? Guys do that?

Alexs: Yeah. I also don't cultivate those kinds of friendships.

Katie: It took me a while to learn that. I mean, some people do Facebook friend purges and I'm like why are you announcing that you're cutting people? Just do it. You move on.

Alexs: What's the next topic?

Katie: Well, can I just want to say this also? Because over time I got to see you guys together and…again, I thought you guys were just really good friends at first. And I mean you 100% are. And I think to me that's the basis of any good relationship. You have to literally look to each other for advice, comfort, and that's what you do with a good friend. And then everything else is icing. And I feel like as I got to know you guys, I saw how you fit together and how you complement each other. And I know that you've lived…Alexs, you've lived this insane life that is book worthy and Jeremy and I probably haven't done anything to write a book. But he was looking for some land to stand on, and you, Jeremy, were solid and you guys complement each other so well. It just makes me really happy, and you're just…I don't know…it's just really nice to see people, regardless of whatever orientation or anything like that, it's just you. You lean on each other. You trust each other implicitly and I just think that's an awesome thing. And I'm glad I got to see that. I think that's beautiful…Yeah, I think they're both crying now.

Jeremy: We are best friends. We enjoy each other's company whatever the fucking we’re doing for the weekend. Whether it's state park or hanging with the neighbors. I mean, we just enjoy each other and then we get to get naked.

Alexs: I'm probably gonna cut that.

Katie: Oh, they're showing me pictures now.

Jeremy: Oh, there are no pictures.

Alexs: Yeah, I mean, it's funny, I'm still, you know, honing in on the title of the book. But it's definitely gonna have this expression “I'll go”. Because my entire life people were like, What about this? I'm like, “I’ll Go”. What about that? “I'll go there.”

Katie: Let me… I have a question for you. What was the harder adjustment for you: All of the crazy trips in the Middle East or adjusting to suburban life here?

Alexs: Suburban life was much harder. Isn't that strange? It is much harder.

Katie: And I knew that, but I just wanted to hear you say it.

Jeremy: Well, it's crazy for me because that's all I've known. Yeah, the fact that you would try to take me to the Middle East, I'm gonna, be kicking and screaming. It’s the safe suburb.

Alexs: You know, one of the things that I think about, my dad teaches teachers how to instill this sense of innocence in children so that they throw off the weight of their environment. My favorite story, I think it really captures the work that he does is he worked with this teacher for some number of months. And one of the first things that the teacher said to my dad, was, I have this kid, and he’s a math teacher, and the kid says to him: “why do I need to learn math? My dad's in prison, all his brothers are in prison. I'm just gonna wind up in prison someday. So why do I need to learn math?”

It's like this really depressing emotional moment. I mean, he’s a middle school kid, right? He’s so young. And you don't realize that kids in that environment are having those thoughts already. And so the techniques that my dad use are meant to allow the child to…just while they’re in the classroom…you know they always have to go home and deal with all that bullshit…but while they're in the classroom to…try to throw that off and to be able to focus…you can't focus on X squared plus y squared equals Z squared.

Katie: But you also can't even tell the kid to throw something off. You have to create an environment where that just happens.

Alexs: You can't just tell them, you have to create that environment.  So my dad travels around the country helping teachers and he was in Omaha and we went up and sat in one of his sessions. One of things that my dad said was that he feels the least safe in the suburbs. You know, me and Jeremy sort of looked at each other because I have said something similar.

Katie: Is it because you're black or because you like adventure?

Alexs: I think that's part of it. But really what he said was because I stand out. Because I can't blend in. If something goes bad or something goes good, then regardless of whether people intend to single me out, they immediately…

Katie: You always go for the thing that's not like you and suburbs are usually white.  

Normally you start there and then you move your way back.

Alexs: That's right. And so I can never get away from that. My dad can never get away from that. When I ride my bike and walk through the neighborhood etcetera like you said, it doesn't have to be negative, right? It doesn't have to be something where people are intentionally targeting you. But it generates a feeling inside of me. And inside of my dad, you just can't get away from it.  When I was in the Middle East, I speak Arabic. I know the religion. I know the areas. Etcetera, etcetera. I blended much better. You know, I can operate in foreign languages. I can travel around cities. I know all sorts of things that I know I can do. Many of those things have no value on this block of the street[a1] .

Katie: Unless you're wearing a sign

Alexs: So, like when I'm in DC hanging out with any of my friends I could talk about, you know, it doesn't matter if we’re at the bar, at the fire station, playing rugby, or just walking around. The fact that I've done what I've done in my life matters all the time[a2] . But when we're next door with our neighbors… it's not that they don't care. Obviously they care about me…but we don't talk about the time I helped write, testimony for Congress…

Katie: Here's the thing. I think you're wrong. I think that when you said you're with your friends in D. C. those things that you've done don't matter either. Those things don't matter because they like you. And all of those things might have made you who you are and given you all of your idiosyncrasies. But I don't think people are like, “Hey, have you met Alexs? He speaks Arabic.” Nobody gives a shit about that. They just like you for who you are. And I think maybe you probably had a hard time living in the suburbs because you thought a lot of things were connected to what you've done, and they don't show here. You're boring here and you have to dig out an interesting life here. And it's harder to do when there's no gunfire or social unrest and all that stuff. So, it's like trying to make excitement in the mundane is a struggle. It's easy to be mundane in excitement, though.

Alexs: Yeah, it's really interesting you say that because just a little while ago I did a podcast with a queer friend of ours named Jess and one of the things she said is something very similar to what you're saying. She called me out on two things. One: she said, you talk about your book as a triumph from trauma and you don't talk about it as a love story.

Katie: It's 100% a love story. And not only between you guys. It's a love story for you.

Alexs: The second thing that she called me out on was…I know I don't tend to express false modesty… But she said the reason people love you is because you love yourself. I was like, “That is definitely not it.” I was like, um but I think she has a point.

Katie: I think you're very proud of yourself? Not prideful, but you're like “I did good. I overcame some stuff. I learned a lot of things. I've experienced a lot of stuff.” And to me, that's a checklist that I have for myself. I've gotten over things and I've done stuff. And I think that you're very proud of yourself. I don't know if you loved yourself immediately. I think you probably were proud first, does that make sense?

Alexs: I don't know what you mean.

Katie: Um, I think that you probably had a list in your head about what you wanted to experience, and you started doing those things and I think…I don't know, because I only know you as I know you. But I think that over time you became...“Oh, I'm good.”

Alexs: You know, I think that's absolutely right. I spent so much time…I talked about in the book…my parents… my mom and my step dad had an idea about what it meant for me to grow up to be, a black man. And what they imagined I would become when I was a kid was not what I wanted to become. And so, from a very young age, I struggled against that. And so, I had to come up with a list or an idea/fantasy of who I could become. And that has given me the confidence to do something like move to be with Jeremy. It created a level of confidence and certainty about who I am that I could take risks.

When I came back from Bahrain and I made these three commitments: I want to settle down, I want to get my PhD, and I'm never going back to the Middle East.

Katie: You want to be a basic bitch!

Jeremy: And move to the suburbs!

Alexs: Yeah! You know, I could only do that because I had lived a badass life. If I hadn't lived a badass life…

Katie: No. I see that. I also think it's interesting because a lot of people do confidence, love and then courage. I think you did courage first, which is not the norm. So you had to, like, you know, Benjamin, Button yourself backwards…

Jeremy: That's a good That's a good analogy.

Alexs: Yeah? What do you think?

Jeremy: I agree. You had to show courage from a young age.

Katie: I don't know what your trauma was and I don't know if you if you want to talk about it. You know, it's different writing about it versus talking about it, I understand that completely. But I think when you go through trauma, you become courageous. When you say, “I lived through this.”

I mean, there's times there's things I've gone through that I look back and I think, “I don't even know how I did that. I don't even know the girl that did that.” But now I know I did that. And I might be disassociated from that time and the place I was when those things happened, but I know that's part of me. And I think, “Good for me, man. I got through that.”

Alexs: Sometimes you look back and you're like, I'm a fucking bad ass. I don't know how I did that.

Katie: I say that every morning! It's interesting that you had to relinquish yourself from champion/victory mode to do this move. And I might speak out of line here, but I think that this is kind of your biggest victory[a3] . And I know you probably wouldn't think you would write a book about living in suburbia, but for a black man to be with a white man and live next door to people that you've become friends with. I think it doesn't happen for everybody.

Jeremy: Take a break?

Katie: Yeah, Sure.

Alexs: Sounds good.

Katie: So what do you think is your favorite thing about living in the suburbs now?

Jeremy: I would say our relationships and the friendships we've made. The friendships we’ve made at the pub are lifelong friendships that we've made with people like you and Rene and Brian. Bryon and Megan. Shelly and Danny. We had happy hour with Shelley and Danny on Thursday night. And Alexs had a happy hour with them the week before that.

Katie: I mean, it's just weird, isn't it?

Jeremy: I mean, we've still got a group text from the vacation we did a year ago. It's active a couple times a week. What’s your answer, Alexs?

Alexs: Yeah. I mean, it's definitely the relationship. I mean, the best part about living in the suburbs is the relationships, no doubt about it. But there's something more for me.

Jeremy: Like cheap housing, safety, the schools?

Alexs: Yeah, all that stuff.

Kagtie: Hey, was gonna say it, Jeremy.

Alexs: I don't know how to express it. Um…yeah…I don't know how to express it. I mean, one of things I would say is that I'm still processing it all. I spent 13 years obsessed with the Middle East, so there are certain things about my new life that I know I like. Like Jeremy said, the relationships are definitely the best part about living in the suburbs, but I don't have the words to express it in a better way than that.

Katie: To me, I feel like the suburbs are foreign territory for you.

Alexs: Yes, it's like learning a new culture, learning a new language, new customs, you know, it's just not what I'm used to, but I know that it's healthy for me. I know that it's

Katie: Why do you think it's healthy for you? I'm not disagreeing with you…

Alexs: Because again…I don't think I have the right words to express it. But what I can say is that the… sense of comfort that I had by being uncomfortable…I have had more of a sense of comfort being uncomfortable. I used to be happy being uncomfortable in around people who I didn't know, speaking languages that I had recently learned. And now I'm learning how to be comfortable… being myself.

Katie: Yes, but I would say that whatever trauma you experienced…trauma is extreme uncomfortableness. And I think everything you chose the uncomfortable, but it was on your terms…

Alexs: Definitely.

Katie: And you did a lot of that and you conquered it. You conquered the uncomfortable. So much so that coming back to the traditional comfort made you uncomfortable. It's the same with somebody who's used to sleeping on the ground. And I don't mean like, poor I mean it’s a part of your culture. You sleep on the ground and the first time you sleep in a bed with a comfy pillow, you think, “What is this?” Or if you sleep in the city and you're used to the traffic and the noise and you go to sleep on a farm in the middle of nowhere, you're like, “Where's the noise? I'm gonna lose my mind.” It's just what you've gotten used to. And I think it's fascinating to me, honestly, because you really have pushed your boundaries as far as being uncomfortable. And now you come back to what is supposed to be comfortable and…

Alexs: Right, but, you know, one of the things that I write about in the book is how I'm driven and I probably have been for my entire life. I'm driven by this knowledge of who I wanna be, even if I'm not that person.

Katie:  Knowledge or desire[a4] ?

Alexs: Knowledge. It's not, “I wish I could do this thing” in my internal speak. It's, “No, you are that person, be it!” And even if there’s a part of me that responds, “but I don't wanna be. I'm uncomfortable”, the response is always, “It doesn't matter, be your true self!” So, part of me is saying I don't know if I could live in the suburbs. It's uncomfortable. I don't understand why people…

Katie: Does it kill a part of you? Is that part of it?

Alexs: So that's that part. That's that voice that is saying, “you're dying. You're not on the pointy end of the spear. You're not jumping out of airplanes.” That part of me is saying I’m a pussy.

Katie: I hear you saying that. I mean 100% serious. I heard you saying that to yourself. When we were at the restaurant. I could see you sitting there having a beer after you got off of work and going, “This is some mundane bullshit!” I'm not kidding.

Alexs: I know you're saying that, and that's absolutely right. You know, the other day I was on one of my daily walks, which again, you know, there was that part of me is saying you're dying inside, but I called Jeremy and we’re just bullshitting and at one point I said, “Hey, by the way, when are they gonna fix the pool? And I caught myself and though, “Are you kidding me? I'm asking about the neighborhood pool like…what the hell. And I do resist that part of me. I resist what's actually happened to me since I moved here.

So that's one part of me. Without a doubt, it was 13 years that I lived on the edge and was doing bad ass shit. But there's another part of me that knows that I was living a great life when I was in Bahrain. You know, I had this loft, I had a rooftop pool. I was playing rugby. I was making good money. You know, I could go anywhere. I could do whatever I wanted, but I was the most depressed I was in my entire life. And I remember coming home from work every day.

There was a period of time where I was loving it, and I was living it up. But then something happened, and I didn't know what it was. And I would come home every day and I would turn my lights off and I would sit in the dark, and I would wonder if life was worth living. And so that moment is still with me.

Katie: Do you think that was circumstantial or chemical?

Alexs: I think it was...I think it was probably both. I mean, I think that's a good question. It was probably both, but I think that there was a cumulative effect of trauma.

Katie: Oh, absolutely. You felt like you had control of the trauma you put yourself in after your childhood.

Alexs: Exactly. I think that's a great observation that I experienced trauma when I was younger. And when I was older, I had to control the trauma. I didn't unfortunately, say to myself, “Avoid the trauma”,I said control it.

Katie: No, you said fuck trauma. Yeah, like, “you want to call me names? You want to say this? I'm gonna say it first.” That's honestly how I became funny. And it’s lame because I am funny and you got life experience. But it's interesting because when your brain is forming, you don't know how to control your environment. And when you're in an environment where you know that the people around you are supposed to protect you and nurture you and all that stuff and it doesn't happen that way, you don't even understand it. All you know is this isn't right or you just don't feel good or you hurt or it just doesn't make sense.

Alexs: Yeah, I mean, I'm talking about these two sides of me. There's one side which is like, you’re a pussy. Like, What the fuck are you doing with your life? When was the last time you ran into a burning building or tackled somebody on their ass? But then there's this other part of me which says you, Alexs, know what it means to continue down that path of being on the pointy end of the spear. I know what it felt like to be in Bahrain and to be the most depressed that I've ever been, and that checks me…

Jeremy: What?

Alexs: Yeah. I mean, I probably have never told you that.

Jeremy: That’s news to me!

Katie: Go on. Explain that because I don't know that.

Alexs: So, you know, when we first met, I talked a lot about Bahrain. I talked about all the things I did. You know, I was in India when I was in Bahrain. I went to Serbia, and I played rugby. And so we've talked about that a lot. I think Jeremy's just reacting to the fact that I never, um, told him that, you know, it was one of the lowest periods of my life. Yeah, and that's why I came home. That's why I made those three promises to myself because just before that, my company said, “Do you want to stay in Bahrain and I said, “Yeah. Fuck yeah. You know, this is awesome. I love it here.” And in a moment, it switched and I became depressed.

Katie: When you came back, did you feel like you'd failed Or did you feel like you were just at that moment…

Alexs: When I when I came back, I felt like I was broken. I felt like I didn't … I felt like… so there was part of it that felt like failure. Um, the part of it where I was like, “Why am I not happy? Why am I not riding the highest wave possible? Why am I depressed? I have all the stuff.” Like when I was a kid, all the fantasies I had about life… I've stayed in some of the best hotels in the world, you know, and like, said it's not that it's not. It was that, um there was more. There was something else or somethings else that I needed in my life.

Katie: So what drew you to Jeremy?

JEremy: Have you seen this belly?

Alexs: You don’t have a belly anymore.

Katie: Mhm. Yeah, Seriously, you don't. It's annoying. No one likes it.

Katie: No, but seriously, what? What was the thing? Because I feel like from what you have told me, this was your first relationship with a man.

Alexs: Correct.

Katie: So, yeah, for both of you, which is crazy. Well, it's not crazy, it's just not the norm. Most people and I I don't know one way or the other, because I've never, never …well… I've made out with girls before, But I've been…like one time literally it was for a cigarette. That's my range.

But I’ve never felt like this outfit doesn’t work for me.  I feel like you both… probably you, Jeremy felt like this outfit doesn't work for me. I feel like you, Alexs, were just kind of wandering around. Going, “I like that.”

Alexs: Yeah, I don't like outfits, I don't wear them…

Katie: I wonder what it is that made you Alexs spark to Jeremy and Jeremy spark to Alexs. So I want you to talk.

Alexs: Don't say weiner.

Katie: Oh, I like how you said, “Don't say Weiner.” And now he's crying.

Jeremy: You go first.

Katie: Try it. No, Jeremy, I want you to try it. You can do it. What did you think of him when you when you first met?

Jeremy: Um, when I first met Alexs, Um, like, he was probably …would have been the first person I ever came out to. So he's probably the first one to accept me, I suppose,

Katie: As is as…

Jeremy: As is. And he liked it … a lot.

Katie: Gross, but great. Okay, keep going.

Jeremy: Um, I feel like Alexs has always been probably more comfortable in his skin than I have been, but he's always pushed me. But he's allowed me to go at my own pace.

Katie: He nudged you.

Jeremy: Yeah. He's been super patient with me. He loves me.

Katie: When did you start to feel at home with him? Was it immediate or did it take a little time? Because you do have to get used to it.

Jeremy: Probably when we first met. I probably knew we were gonna be in each other's lives forever. Probably within the first day. So… we got online and from the day we met, we talked every day. We've talked every day since then, except for there is probably one or two days. A big part of our relationship was talking on the phone, just really getting to know one another. And so when we finally did get to meet, it was kind of surreal.

Katie: Yeah I've heard the story about the sunlight. But I just I'm asking this of you because you won't say stuff sometimes. And I feel like you need to be kinda… Your version of this story, this particular part of the story matters. So what drew you to him when you met him?

Jeremy: Probably just his passion for life. His relationships in his life are extremely important. I mean, his firefighter friends; his best friend Ben, I mean, it's his little brother. They will be lifelong friends. There's absolutely no doubt the importance of relationships to him.

And just his patience is huge. I mean, for someone to be in a new gay relationship. I've got two kids. He's accepted them as his kids. That can't be easy. Think about the life he's lived.

Katie: Honestly, you guys are pretty even keeled on what's easy, because I think it was difficult for you, Jeremy, to come out. And I mean, I think you've been brave, Alexs. I think you've been brave in so many different ways. But, Jeremy, I've got to tell you, I think that you've been braver in a lot of aspects because you came out from the mold that you had settled in and you're like, “This isn't right”, and that's harder to break a mold.

I mean, you, Alexs, were free already. I think it was a lot harder for you, Jeremy. And I think that your girls, are amazing. I think that the life you have now is awesome, and I just I mean, I've talked to you both together, and I've talked to you about individually and it's nauseating. But it's beautiful, and I think that if I thought for a minute that it was frivolous or flippant I wouldn't be here.

I want you to know that I think what Alexs has done with his life has been super brave and challenging. But I don't want you to diminish what you've done Jeremy, because that is also incredibly brave.

Alexs: I'm glad you said that.

Jeremy: Yeah. I mean, I think it's I think it's gorgeous.

Katie: So all right, now your turn, Your thing.

Alexs: Well, the first thing was looks.

Katie: He's a hot piece of ass.

Alexs: I mean, it's important what you said before: early in my life, I said, “I don't fit the mold. And if I try to fit the mold, I'm gonna be unhappy for the rest of my life.”  So I didn't know what it meant when I said I need to settle down. I didn't know if I was gonna wind up with a woman or a man. I didn't know if I was gonna wind up with anybody.

You know, one of my favorite moments was with one of my best friends. His name is Captain John. We work together in Iraq. After I met Jeremy and after we decided that I was gonna move here, Captain John happened to be in D. C. We went out for beers, etcetera. And we started talking about Kansas City, and he's like, “Oh yeah, I have a house in Kansas City now.” I said, “Oh, I'm gonna be moving there.” When he asked why, I said, “I met someone, his name is Jeremy and I'm gonna be moving out there to be with him.”  He's said, “you're gonna be with someone?”

Katie: His reaction wasn’t that you’re gay. His surprise was that somebody else is tying you to this ground.

Alexs: Right! You're gonna be with someone? How is that even possible?

Katie: I was going to say I think it's also funny that every time I've ever talked to Jeremy about you and all the stuff that you've got going on. There's never been announce of intimidation with Jeremy. Yeah, which is crazy cool.

Alexs: I never thought about that.

Katie: No, he’s never been intimidated by this. And even all the friends and relationships you've had he’s literally talked to me about… yeah, this guy is going to be a friend of his for life and I'm excited to meet him. He's never been like, I’m not sure about this. Never, never even an inkling of that. And I think that’s another thing that I was like, these guys are for real. I don't invest myself in stuff that… I think you don't know sometimes…but I don't invest myself in stuff that I think is gonna wash away. And I adore you both, but I think sometimes you might think that because Alexs and I have a similar mindset on a lot of things that you fall to the wayside. But I think you are such an integral part of his life—more than I think you even realize sometimes. I think he's been brave doing God knows what his whole life, but for Jeremy to break the mold of suburbia… That's probably why Alexs was so scared of living here. Because it literally is a trap for a lot of people. It is comfort and safety. And don't push the walls here because this is solid. And Jeremy, you were like, I know I'm doing all the “right things”, but this isn't right for me and for you to break that, I think that is insane courage. And I think that Alexs sees that in you.

Alexs: Yeah, there's a different kind of power and inspiration in that. When we first met, I didn't know Jeremy's family, but they’ve become such an important part of my life and so I said, Jeremy's looks is one of the things that really drew me in. But the second thing is, and I'm gonna probably sound like I'm contradicting myself, but the fact that there was a sense of stability about him…he grew up in a really small town. He's very close with his family... we've been talking a lot about how the suburbs are uncomfortable and it's really a lot around stability.

Katie: It’s the one thing you didn’t have your whole life.

Alexs: It's the one thing I didn't have. Yeah, like I said, the title of the book is still being worked on, but there will be the expression “I'll go”…movement has been a part of my life.

Katie: I think you should call it either “the title of the book is still being worked on” or “I'll go”. Yeah, because you've said that multiple times.

Alexs: Yeah, I mean, and so with Jeremy, there was stability, which I didn't know I wanted. Like I said, there was part of me that knew that's what I wanted. But I didn't know it; that part of me that's like, you're a fucking pussy talking about the neighborhood pool. I mean, that part of me is still alive and an idiot, and…

Katie: You fight it.

Alexs: You have to fight it.

Katie: You don't have to. A lot of people succumb to it. But I think it's interesting because you want more and honestly, that's the one thing that I see. A lot of people look at you both in your life styles and your comeuppance in the world. I think they would think you don't make sense, but to me you do because he represents the one thing you were scared of your whole life.

Jeremy: That's pretty deep, Katie.

Katie: You accidentally chose wisely for this podcast.

Jeremy: No accident.

Katie: But I also think that he represented the thing that you were missing as well. And that's why I think you're like a yin and yang for each other, because he was the crazy wind in the hair, that kind of guy and the kind of person that you actually were looking for. And it doesn't mean the things in your past don't matter. And likewise for you, Alexs. But I think that you both were like magnets to each other because you saw the things that you were both missing in your lives.

Alexs: And I think another good part of it is that we haven't had to let go of our past. You made a really good point. Jeremy has never been like, “Why do you have all these friends you hang out with and care about?”

Katie: That's implicit trust. That doesn't come around often.

Alexs: And Jeremy, you know I love his family. I love spending time with them. So he hasn't had to give up…

Jeremy: Yeah, sometimes he’s like, “can we go to your parents?”

Katie: No, I think that’s awesome. Because what the norms are is this is not real. This does not work. What you guys have is not how these things work. But it does. But I think it's because A) you matched and B) you work at it. I don't think it's easy

Alexs: It's hard work for both of us.

Katie: Yeah, but nothing that you want is ever going to be worth it if it's not hard to get. Sorry, I didn't mean to drop Bibles on,

Jeremy: It's been a lot of work. I'm proud of what we have. Um, God…

Katie: I kind of feel like Barbara Walters.

Jeremy: Yeah, you should.

Katie: You've raised beautiful girls they’re cool as shit. I'm not even lying. You know how I feel about them. And I think that inspecting your life instead of just taking a spoon is a good way to live.

Jeremy: You know, coming out to my family was not easy, but my mom and dad are super supportive. And my mom was like, “Are you dating anybody?”

Katie: Did you come out to your parents before you introduced them to Alexs?

Jeremy: Okay, so it was probably 6 to 9 months after I came out. Uhh. We were dating when I came out. So I'm from a small town in rural Missouri and not many Black people that live in Cainsville.

Alexs: Or zero.

Katie: Uh, that's a different number than not many.

Jeremy: Whenever I did tell mom and dad that I was dating somebody it was a non-issue, and I remember telling my sister Misty that I’m dating somebody and he's black and she said, “So when are we gonna get to meet him?” It was just a non-issue So that was kind of like a seal on the deal for me that it is a non-issue. And I don't ever even think about the fact that you're black and I'm white. It's just that we love each other immensely.

Alexs: Yeah, I mean, and it's it's a part of my story, right? And so skin color does matter, especially in America. But the reason I wrote my book was to inspire people to live outside of boundaries. And so yeah, skin color has meaning, but it doesn't have to define who anyone is. And we still get to live our lives like I say, be the hero of our stories, no matter what. And that's really why I wrote the book is to represent that in some way.

Katie: Do you want this book to be more of an inspiration and motivation for people or just to share information?

Alexs: I hope that it is inspirational. I have amazing friends who love me more than I understand. And many of them have committed to helping share my story, which is one part of it. Another part of it is how do I get in touch with people who I don't know who are not in my network, who are struggling with growing up in abusive household or trying to come out or veterans We're dealing with PTSD or first responders who are dealing with PTSD.

Katie: You are casting a wide net. “I want to fix everything.”

Alexs: You know, I've been a first responder.

Katie: I know the feeling. I know the feeling. I'm not a first responder, but I know the feeling like, I just wanna give you a big hug and tell you it's gonna be OK, and you need to deal with your demons.

Alexs: It's not even a “live your life like I lived my life.” But here's a story of someone who also made it. And if I can make it, you can make it.

Katie: Do you think that over time you would write another book on a different aspect?

Alexs: I want to write another book and I want to write it about me and Jeremy.

Jeremy: And Missouri State Parks.

Alexs: But the book, as it's written, there's only one chapter on me and Jeremy. And so even though it is part love story, it ends with Jeremy. And the reason is because there is a reason I was able to move to the suburbs of Kansas City, and that's this first book. The reason I was able to do what I'm doing now is this first book. If that part of my life had not happened, I couldn't be here right now. I couldn't be healthy. I couldn't be healthy. Full stop. Period. End of life.

Katie: And you know what's so funny about that is that your pinnacle is really the suburbs. When your whole life you challenged yourself all these different things. But this has been the biggest challenge.

Alexs: Absolutely.

Katie: And you have come to terms with yourself. You’ve come to terms with the life you've led and what brought you here. Settling down is so hard. For me. I felt like every time I made a solid choice about what my future was going to be, then I shut 20 doors.  And if I didn't make a choice, those doors were open. I could do anything. And that's why I got married at 40.

Alexs: Yes. One of the big things for me when I moved to Kansas City is that I lost my security clearance. And for eight years, my ability to work in classified environments was the only cache I had. That's how I made my money. And you have x number of years before your security clearance lapses. That's like an existential crisis. You're like they take your toys, your house, your car, your clothes everything. That's how it felt. I mean, I had a job, you know? I had everything, but my mindset was like, If I don't have a security clearance, I can't live. You know, I can't do the thing that I'm good at.

Katie: I think you do that a lot. I think you put your everything on a pinnacle of stuff. And I think you are constantly getting over the fact that this pinnacle doesn't matter as much as you thought it did.

Alexs: Oh, I climbed that hill too. Where is another one? Is there another mountain?

Katie: You're like, this is fucking Everest, dude.

Alexs: Yeah. Yeah, that's what people are saying. They're like, this is Everest. This is all there is. I'm like, I want more.

Katie: But the thing is, is the suburbs are your Everest.

Jeremy: Before we end, I do want to say that going to the pub was probably the first part of coming out. Going to the pub and being accepted for who we are, it was a huge part for me. You know, like for you to… you didn't care … we are Alexs and Jeremy and then we made some amazing friends as Alexs and Jeremy.

Katie: Were you worried about that?

Jeremy: Oh, for sure.

Katie: With me.

Jeremy: No, not with, you know, but just in general. But going to the pub. That was a huge part for me…being accepted…I want to thank you for that. I mean, you did all that. It's been a big part for me.

Katie: It's been a big part for me.

Alexs: It's been a big part for me, you know. Being able to find a community where I'm able to replicate the other parts of my life, you know?

Yeah. So I'm going to say thanks to Katie for joining.

Katie: I'm honored.

Alexs: Thanks for Jeremy even though you were nervous in the beginning.

Katie: I just wanna thank you guys, because to be looked at as somebody you want to talk to about personal parts in your life, that is an honor. It really is. And I feel so thankful that you've accepted me and allowed me to be part of this. And so cheers to you guys.